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State Cup Results - Pairty in OKlahoma Soccer?

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State Cup Results - Pairty in OKlahoma Soccer?

Post by ENERGYFC04 on Mon May 09, 2016 8:09 pm

I just looked at State Cup Results in the Girls U11 - 14 brackets for this last weekend (who really cares about boys anyway) and thought it was actually very interesting.

OFC (8 v8 I know argument on Carreno), TSC, Norman and SLSC all won a state title. Frankly, it was far more diversity than i thought i would see.

I then looked at standings (just as Oklahoma teams) in SRPL et al for those age brackets:

U14

1. SLSC
2. OFC
3. NYSA Fury in another bracket
4. TSC Rhein
5. NEOFC

U13
1. SLSC
2. NYSA
3. OFC
4. TSC Williams

Again, frankly surprised by the results. Now i know TSC has ECNL team which changes some dynamics. That said i thought it an interesting look outside the 04 bubble and how teams are doing and the dynamics of "development" et al. The one thing i will throw out (and i mean this with sincerity) is whether this is indicative of OFC grip lessening on the westside of the state? Seems there is incredible balance and competition within these ages groups.

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Re: State Cup Results - Pairty in OKlahoma Soccer?

Post by ENERGYFC04 on Mon May 09, 2016 8:48 pm

I'll take this a step further.  I looked at the last 2 years. I could be off a little as doing this in between work.  I awarded 3 points for a league (OPL/SRPL) championship (meaning finish among OK teams) and/or a State Cup Title.  I awarded 1 point for second place finish and/or State Finalist.  For the Griffin 04, Beattie 03 and Carreno 05 and OFC 05 who are playing up I gave 1 point to each season played up in anything but OCL competition.  I only used 02 - 05s as anything else would take up too much time.  Again, could be off but not too much.

TSC - 25 pts
OFC - 19pts
SLSC - 16 pts
Norman 6 pts
Blitz - 3 pts

Again, if i'm wrong don't kill me but i tried.  I think its an interesting look at OK soccer.  

Here are some trends i noticed.  OFC and TSC dominate at U11 - U12.  SLSC and Norman become more and more competitive each year with them typically peaking or close to it by U14.  As an SLSC person i think it intereseting that the academy program really got up and going with the 01 and 02s but thats more for just SLSC parents. One caveat is TSC U14s play ECNL which might take some luster off but not much in light of the fact my numbers only encapsulate 1 year of ECNL.  So at most you could only add 6 pts assuming the 02 TSC team finished first in everything.

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Re: State Cup Results - Pairty in OKlahoma Soccer?

Post by Rainbow on Mon May 09, 2016 9:09 pm

So if you did that then the points would be...

TSC - 31 pts
OFC - 19 pts
SLSC - 10 pts
Norman - 6 pts
Blitz - 3 pts

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Re: State Cup Results - Pairty in OKlahoma Soccer?

Post by ENERGYFC04 on Mon May 09, 2016 9:19 pm

Rainbow. My look at SLSC is 16. Thanks in large part of 02s but also noticing 03s finished above all in SRPL this spring (hey that suprised me). TSC had more and so many teams i didn't intend any slight. I was more concerned having OFC and norman correct Laughing

I think my substance about development holds some weight. I'm looking at Norman 03s who were 4 - 5 and ours 4 - 5 but one won state cup and one won SRPL (won meaning finish among OK teams). Truly fascinating if nothing else.

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Re: State Cup Results - Pairty in OKlahoma Soccer?

Post by Sally on Mon May 09, 2016 9:59 pm


Sorry, had to do it. Smile

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Re: State Cup Results - Pairty in OKlahoma Soccer?

Post by Sally on Mon May 09, 2016 10:01 pm

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Re: State Cup Results - Pairty in OKlahoma Soccer?

Post by Yellowcard on Tue May 10, 2016 1:25 am

Wow...
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Re: State Cup Results - Pairty in OKlahoma Soccer?

Post by Sally on Tue May 10, 2016 1:20 pm

Nobody get there panties in a wad, I was just playing with ANGRYFC. The 03 board is boring so I have to come give you 04's a hard time. Razz

(Forrest Gump voice) I'm not a smart man, but those calculations make no sense to meee.

and no one recognized the S African sign language guy that had no idea how to do sign language?

disappointing
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Re: State Cup Results - Pairty in OKlahoma Soccer?

Post by Yellowcard on Tue May 10, 2016 2:48 pm

This isn't an 04 or 03 board... This is in General discussion so you are good!  Those calculations were hard for me to follow too...  I did some calculations too...

3=4 and 1x5=11  But potato is the most competitive box in this pen...  Sometimes you have to divide the potato to understand...

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Re: State Cup Results - Pairty in OKlahoma Soccer?

Post by ENERGYFC04 on Tue May 10, 2016 2:49 pm

Dadgummit people. I'm in a phone conference and doing this work. I'll have exact math and explanation in a bit. Geez you guys (I can't call Sally a lady) are hard to please.

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Re: State Cup Results - Pairty in OKlahoma Soccer?

Post by Yellowcard on Tue May 10, 2016 3:10 pm

ENERGYFC04 wrote:Dadgummit people.   I'm in a phone conference and doing this work. I'll have exact math and explanation in a bit.  Geez you guys (I can't call Sally a lady) are hard to please.

Oh i'm sure Sally is a Lady...  With hairy legs.

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Re: State Cup Results - Pairty in OKlahoma Soccer?

Post by ENERGYFC04 on Tue May 10, 2016 3:26 pm

This is what I got and I think I’m pretty close. Using the following matrix (this is what you can do when you’re on a phone conference all morning):

Looked at last two years of soccer. This includes 2 state cups and OPL games where applicable. If there was an SRPL league I did not count OPL because my assumption is the good teams went and played PLW/SRPL. I do not consider silver divisions or anything else. You get 3 points for a championship at state cup or the top league for your age group. You get one point for a runner up at state cup or league championship. The SRPL/PLW points are considered only as the Oklahoma teams compared to each other (I did not consider Dallas teams when factored into the league’s standings)

TSC has 22 points in the last two years. They have 4 state titles and 4 runner ups. They have 3 league titles and 2 runner ups. Now league is slightly skewed because Beattie has played up. Griffin played up this year and Carreno played up. Bonus points for those teams. Add 6 for Beattie since its two years of playing up. Add 3 for Griffin and 2 for Carreno. TSC point total is 33.

OFC – has 16 points the last two years. 1 state title (OFC 05s) and 1 runner up. They have 3 league champions and 2 runner ups. We can give the OFC 05s 1 bonus point for playing up (I gave Carreno 2 and since Carreno advanced out of OCL I think that’s fair). That’s 17 points. I was honestly surprised by this. OFC’s 02s have not been very successful judging from this limited criteria. The 03s made a State Cup final this year and were OPL champs twice. The 04s have been OPL champs last fall and runner up the year before that but no State Cup finals appearances. I have not calculated this spring’s OPL for 04s as games are still to be played. You can assume OFC will just at least to 17 points and possibly 19.

SLSC – 1 state title. One Runner up. They have 4 league titles. That’s a total of 16 points. Most of the damage has been done by SLSC the last two years with their 02s. Just for reference I looked back and they weren’t nearly as successful in u11 and u12.

Norman – This group their 03s have done most of their damage with a surprise state cup this year and runner up last year. They received 3 runner up points in league play. Aside from Beattie this has been a pretty even group. Norman gets 7 points.

Blitz – 3 points with a league title this year with 05s.

Observations

TSC performed as expected. They did get 11 bonus points with their teams playing up but I think its fair especially in light of the success Beattie has had. Without the bonus points they look closer to the pack but hey, trying to look at it rationally.

OFC surprised me. Only 1 state title the past two (2) years (OFC 05 team this year in 8 v Cool and one runner up. They seem to get most of their success in league play. Now admittedly, I know their 01s are good so if I had the time to go there it might bump OFC up some. OFC seems more successful in the older age groups. Is that because SLSC and CVFC kids historically migrated over there?

SLSC – A lot of their success is attributed to the 02 team. Again, this started in U13 – U14 especially. Their 03s snagged a surprise SRPL title this spring.

Blitz – only one league title. I don’t think this represents Blitz as a club. I understand there is too much movement between blitz and TSC players and coaches making continuity hard. I think they have gotten the most out of the soccer drama they have had to endure the past few years and been very competitive.

I think I’m close on this. It’s a narrow view. I could make good arguments for and against this such as factoring in other tournaments (kids have off weekends), injuries or missing kids during state cup and other such blue room material. That said decent attempt at an honest assessment here.

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Re: State Cup Results - Pairty in OKlahoma Soccer?

Post by Number6 on Tue May 10, 2016 3:36 pm

Energy usually has great points. I think your stretching a bit. Championships is what matters most (girls and boys) you can always tweek whatever to make it look good. SL winning their first state championship in 02 doesn't qualify as parity. WSA, blitz, always jumps up to take one. Tsc and ofc won 6 of the 8 state championships last weekend. SL 03 didn't make final 4. Sorry man big clubs still run this state when it matters most at state.

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Re: State Cup Results - Pairty in OKlahoma Soccer?

Post by Yellowcard on Tue May 10, 2016 3:46 pm

Too many variables...
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Re: State Cup Results - Pairty in OKlahoma Soccer?

Post by ENERGYFC04 on Tue May 10, 2016 4:00 pm

Number6 wrote:Energy usually has great points. I think your stretching a bit. Championships is what matters most (girls and boys) you can always tweek whatever to make it look good. SL winning their first state championship in 02 doesn't qualify as parity. WSA, blitz, always jumps up to take one. Tsc and ofc won 6 of the 8 state championships last weekend. SL 03 didn't make final 4. Sorry man big clubs still run this state when it matters most at state.

I don't necessarily disagree with you on the variables.  Also, i limited it to girls (i don't have boys so not a concern) and the 02 - 05s (because that was what was on the gotsoccer website for state cup and easily accessible).   In contrast, in the above mentioned age groups OFC has only 1 state title (05 girls this year in 8 v  Cool.   If you include their 01s last year they have one and SLSC has a runner up.  

Now, to some valid points i will make.  I think it truly shows the dominance of TSC on the eastside from a winning standpoint (I'm not one that always equates winning to development).  The only other eastside team is blitz with 3 points (thats an assumption because i just realized their spring OPL season is not done.)   Not an indictment but more likely shows the heavy influx of Blitz players during competitive years to blitz  

I'm also looking through a narrow lens for a couple of reasons.  First, on the eastside from this board it seems TSC's influence has grown greatly the past two years.   I also think it shows OFC's influence on the westside has diminished.  Since NYSA and SLSC really ramped up their academy they have not been losing near as many players to OFC.  This time period also correlates to CVFC decline on this side of the state and more of those players heading to other clubs.  

Again, not science but i think it may show some interesting trends that are occurring.

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Re: State Cup Results - Pairty in OKlahoma Soccer?

Post by The Soccer 1% on Tue May 10, 2016 4:14 pm

But at least with the 03s and the 04s TSC/OFC has a similar majority of the teams.  6/8 of the top teams in the '03s and 8/10 of the 04s in my view.   I think it does show some parity.  I'd also say that it highlights that OFC is not going to play second fiddle just because they're not in the ECNL.  

The growth of TSC in the 03 thing had to do with Chris Amos, in my opinion and the potential of ECNL. He had a bunch of sharks when they were the Texans and they beat EVERYONE. More than one team of them beat everyone and I think he had 4 teams when they were U10. When he went to TSC it was significant. Tina Banham going there also had an impact as her team was solid and only got more solid there. The '03/04 growth is parents seeing the ECNL path for their kid.

I think the thing to do for developmental purposes is for the young ages in the large clubs to divide up a little and try to create academy/U11/maybe U12 teams that are pretty even, except for maybe a lower level team that is developmental/Recish kids.  Then, shake them up when it comes time for U12/U13.  I think the whole group would develop better.  I don't know that it would be great for the top level kids.  But, it could be better because it would assure that you don't miss any that are going to blossom late.  I think if you created a program in a vacuum you might do it this way.  I don't think anyone will do it this way.

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Re: State Cup Results - Pairty in OKlahoma Soccer?

Post by Sally on Tue May 10, 2016 4:24 pm


Yellowcard wrote:This isn't an 04 or 03 board... This is in General discussion so you are good!  Those calculations were hard for me to follow too...  I did some calculations too...

3=4 and 1x5=11  But potato is the most competitive box in this pen...  Sometimes you have to divide the potato to understand...

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Re: State Cup Results - Pairty in OKlahoma Soccer?

Post by Sally on Tue May 10, 2016 4:33 pm

ENERGYFC04 wrote:This is what I got and I think I’m pretty close.   Using the following matrix (this is what you can do when you’re on a phone conference all morning):

Looked at last two years of soccer. This includes 2 state cups and OPL games where applicable. If there was an SRPL league I did not count OPL because my assumption is the good teams went and played PLW/SRPL.   I do not consider silver divisions or anything else.  You get 3 points for a championship at state cup or the top league for your age group. You get one point for a runner up at state cup or league championship.  The SRPL/PLW points are considered only as the Oklahoma teams compared to each other (I did not consider Dallas teams when factored into the league’s standings)

TSC  has 22 points in the last two years.  They have 4 state titles and 4 runner ups.   They have 3 league titles and 2 runner ups.  Now league is slightly skewed because Beattie has played up. Griffin played up this year and Carreno played up.  Bonus points for those teams.  Add 6 for Beattie since its two years of playing up.  Add 3 for Griffin and 2 for Carreno.   TSC point total is 33.

OFC – has 16 points the last two years.    1 state title (OFC 05s) and 1 runner up.   They have 3 league champions and 2 runner ups.    We can give the OFC 05s 1 bonus point for playing up (I gave Carreno 2 and since Carreno advanced out of OCL I think that’s fair).   That’s 17 points.  I was honestly surprised by this.  OFC’s 02s have not been very successful judging from this limited criteria.  The 03s made a State Cup final this year and were OPL champs twice.    The 04s have been OPL champs last fall and runner up the year before that but no State Cup finals appearances.  I have not calculated this spring’s OPL for 04s as games are still to be played.   You can assume OFC will just at least to 17 points and possibly 19.  

SLSC – 1 state title.  One Runner up.    They have 4 league titles.  That’s a total of 16 points.   Most of the damage has been done by SLSC the last two years with their 02s.  Just for reference I looked back and they weren’t nearly as successful in u11 and u12.  

Norman – This group their 03s have done most of their damage with a surprise state cup this year and runner up last year.  They received 3 runner up points in league play.    Aside from Beattie this has been a pretty even group.   Norman gets 7 points.    

Blitz – 3 points with a league title this year with 05s.

Observations

TSC performed as expected.   They did get 11 bonus points with their teams playing up but I think its fair especially in light of the success Beattie has had.   Without the bonus points they look closer to the pack but hey, trying to look at it rationally.

OFC surprised me.  Only 1 state title the past two (2) years (OFC 05 team this year in 8 v Cool and one runner up.   They seem to get most of their success in league play.  Now admittedly, I know their 01s are good so if I had the time to go there it might bump OFC up some.   OFC seems more successful in the older age groups. Is that because SLSC and CVFC kids historically migrated over there?  

SLSC – A lot of their success is attributed to the 02 team.   Again, this started in U13 – U14 especially.  Their 03s snagged a surprise SRPL title this spring.  

Blitz – only one league title.  I don’t think this represents Blitz as a club.   I understand there is too much movement between blitz and TSC players and coaches making continuity hard. I think they have gotten the most out of the soccer drama they have had to endure the past few years and been very competitive.

I think I’m close on this.  It’s a narrow view.  I could make good arguments for and against this such as factoring in other tournaments (kids have off weekends), injuries or missing kids during state cup and other such blue room material.   That said decent attempt at an honest assessment here.  

Are bonus points available if we do extra laps or bring can goods?
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Re: State Cup Results - Pairty in OKlahoma Soccer?

Post by ENERGYFC04 on Tue May 10, 2016 4:36 pm

Sally wrote:
ENERGYFC04 wrote:This is what I got and I think I’m pretty close.   Using the following matrix (this is what you can do when you’re on a phone conference all morning):

Looked at last two years of soccer. This includes 2 state cups and OPL games where applicable. If there was an SRPL league I did not count OPL because my assumption is the good teams went and played PLW/SRPL.   I do not consider silver divisions or anything else.  You get 3 points for a championship at state cup or the top league for your age group. You get one point for a runner up at state cup or league championship.  The SRPL/PLW points are considered only as the Oklahoma teams compared to each other (I did not consider Dallas teams when factored into the league’s standings)

TSC  has 22 points in the last two years.  They have 4 state titles and 4 runner ups.   They have 3 league titles and 2 runner ups.  Now league is slightly skewed because Beattie has played up. Griffin played up this year and Carreno played up.  Bonus points for those teams.  Add 6 for Beattie since its two years of playing up.  Add 3 for Griffin and 2 for Carreno.   TSC point total is 33.

OFC – has 16 points the last two years.    1 state title (OFC 05s) and 1 runner up.   They have 3 league champions and 2 runner ups.    We can give the OFC 05s 1 bonus point for playing up (I gave Carreno 2 and since Carreno advanced out of OCL I think that’s fair).   That’s 17 points.  I was honestly surprised by this.  OFC’s 02s have not been very successful judging from this limited criteria.  The 03s made a State Cup final this year and were OPL champs twice.    The 04s have been OPL champs last fall and runner up the year before that but no State Cup finals appearances.  I have not calculated this spring’s OPL for 04s as games are still to be played.   You can assume OFC will just at least to 17 points and possibly 19.  

SLSC – 1 state title.  One Runner up.    They have 4 league titles.  That’s a total of 16 points.   Most of the damage has been done by SLSC the last two years with their 02s.  Just for reference I looked back and they weren’t nearly as successful in u11 and u12.  

Norman – This group their 03s have done most of their damage with a surprise state cup this year and runner up last year.  They received 3 runner up points in league play.    Aside from Beattie this has been a pretty even group.   Norman gets 7 points.    

Blitz – 3 points with a league title this year with 05s.

Observations

TSC performed as expected.   They did get 11 bonus points with their teams playing up but I think its fair especially in light of the success Beattie has had.   Without the bonus points they look closer to the pack but hey, trying to look at it rationally.

OFC surprised me.  Only 1 state title the past two (2) years (OFC 05 team this year in 8 v Cool and one runner up.   They seem to get most of their success in league play.  Now admittedly, I know their 01s are good so if I had the time to go there it might bump OFC up some.   OFC seems more successful in the older age groups. Is that because SLSC and CVFC kids historically migrated over there?  

SLSC – A lot of their success is attributed to the 02 team.   Again, this started in U13 – U14 especially.  Their 03s snagged a surprise SRPL title this spring.  

Blitz – only one league title.  I don’t think this represents Blitz as a club.   I understand there is too much movement between blitz and TSC players and coaches making continuity hard. I think they have gotten the most out of the soccer drama they have had to endure the past few years and been very competitive.

I think I’m close on this.  It’s a narrow view.  I could make good arguments for and against this such as factoring in other tournaments (kids have off weekends), injuries or missing kids during state cup and other such blue room material.   That said decent attempt at an honest assessment here.  

Are bonus points available if we do extra laps or bring can goods?
Sally. Rumor has it your ability to generate bonus points is unprecedented among soccer moms. Therefore, I would be doing a disservice to cap the bonus point system and your creativity in earning those.

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Re: State Cup Results - Pairty in OKlahoma Soccer?

Post by Number6 on Tue May 10, 2016 4:41 pm

I think it's all tied to academy. Tsc had amazing 04 academy and it transfers to competitive. SL has always has a top level 02 even in academy and it transferred. The thing that tsc and ofc have is they don't have off years. SL 05 top team didn't even make the finals of presidents cup. OFC is rockin on the boys side and it seems they always have the top boys academy teams. They seem to be struggling on the Girls side but I don't remember their 02,03,04 academy teams being dominant by any means, where Tsc has. SL has a good academy program and so does Norman it's just not consistent every year. It's seems to be tied to a coach.

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